path: root/faith/on_humanae_vitae.rst

On Humanae Vitae
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:date: 1970-01-01T00:00:00
:status: draft
:category: faith
:tags: cultureWar, catholic, infallibility, blogComment

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Discussion on First Things 35 comments
Humanae Vitae | Peter M. J. Stravinskas
mcepl
mcepl pt8685 6 days ago

Which of course is completely irrelevant. When I am talking about NFP
I don't mean the fact that ovulating woman are less likely (on unable?)
to conceive. I am talking about NFP as a method to find out when that
moment is. And in that aspect I found NFP as completely unreliable.

mcepl pt8685 16 days ago

Yeah, that’s a good one! I will surely remember it.

Fortunately for us, my wife’s cycle used to be very regular. We could
(and we did for couple of years) do just counting days as our
contraceptive technique, because we knew always pretty surely where we
are in the cycle. We have tried to do NFP as well, but even though we
knew what actually is going on in her body we were never able to do any
head and toes from temperatures or any physical signs on her body (I
don’t want to get into too much gory details here). I was strictly
against the Pill then, not because of the false dichotomy between NFP
and contraception, but because I was worried to mix with my wife’s body
while we still hoped to have more children, so I am very glad the days
counting worked for us. What would we do with my wife’s cycle being less
reliable, I don’t know, and I am very glad I didn’t have to deal with
it. But certainly the last thing in the world would be to trust NFP.

mcepl 18 days ago

Could you please explain me how from your nonsensical babble on the
verse about circumcision it follows that my wife should endanger her
health (she has MS, so further pregnancy could very well lead to another
attack), why my friend should endanger her marriage (their fourth child
is severely disabled so taking care of her stretches the family to its
limits)? Or is all your talk about sanctity of sex just nonsense and you
really believe that all should lead the only really truly holy celibate
life as you? I really believe that exactly such irresponsible nonsense
leads to complete loss of credibility of the Catholics in any discussion
on the contraception. Yes, I am angry, because of this nonsense we have
lost all Catholics from the debate about the real issues of life into
this cesspit of ignorance. Not mentioning that I actually love my wife
and care about her more than about your infallibility.

Discussion on Echo24.cz 43 comments
Zajatci virtuality. Hloupý lidovec, Hitler a morální policisté
mcepl
mcepl Stanislav Cerman 9 days ago


Předpokládám, že to je házení perel sviním, ale mezi panem Kalendou
a Vašim nadáváním na komunisty vidím několik drobných rozdílů: pan
Kalenda není jenom tak někdo, ale politik reprezentující stranu, která
se tváří jako slušná; a jako taková ho má naprosto všechny práva na
světě vyhodit ho ze svých řad, protože ji dělá ostudu. KDÚ jsem volil
a pokud by s ním okamžitě nevyrazili futro, tak bych o jejich slušnosti
velice vážně zapochyboval.

Pokud Vám to nepřipadne správné, tak zkuste veřejně říkat nebo udělat něco co může silně poškodit Vašeho zaměstnavatele. Pak nám sdělte co bude následovat.

Nevím, jestli to myslel vážně (a popravdě řečeno mě to ani moc
nezajímá), ale jako politik se dal do kšeftu s image a pokud to nevěděl,
tak v politice nemá co dělat.

Další rozdíl je v tom, že pravděpodobně se mu nestane nic dalšího než že
odejde z politiky (alespoň doufám, že to udělá, a neskončí u někoho
jiného), najde si nějaké poctivé zaměstnání, a bude alespoň svobodný
říkat kde chce co chce.

Gay Marriage and Religious Freedom | R. R. Reno

BTW, I have to also mention this ... I have incredibly strong feeling
that before we can talk about that speck of the tax non-exemption, there
is a log all believers should take care of. What about that?

Before we can cry how we have God-given right of being tax exempt (we
don't), we should probably acknowledge a terrible abuse which does
happen with this right. I have no clue what to do about it, but it seems
a bit hypocritical not to mention it.

I am afraid the author puts the question in a wrong order. It should not
be "Why to support religious non-profit organizations?" (we should
support them of course), but "Why not to suppport non-religious NGOs?".
And I don't think he gives a good answer on the latter.

---------------

I won't give you chapter and verse, but get yourself into Desert Fathers
or some more ascetic literature and you'll get that. However, exact
quarrel about this was not the point of what I wanted to say.

I will happily let you, Catholics, to fight this among yourselves.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=humane+vi... and you will find hundreds of opinions
(including some of them from seemingly quite authoritative authors).
Having no interest in getting into that debate myself too much, let me
stand aside.

Besides, somebody here corrected me that my problem is not that much
papal infallibility as much as infallibility of magisterium.

mcepl LeoXIII 21 days ago

Medicine is denying the will of God, until the middle ages many in
Christendom agreed with this. How dare you stop somebody from dying when
the God decided that one should die?

What I am trying to say is that with this silly absolutes, you won't get
far in the discussion. And, BTW, the argument about stopping a wife from
conceiving as against the will of God doesn’t seem to me that much
different.

mcepl Iowa_Lawyer 22 days ago

Thank you for very thoughtful and concise reply. Could you elaborate,
please? Perhaps I am not as ignorant as you try to make me?


I completely agree that behind Humane Vitae lurks a way deeper issue and
that is the infallibility of pope/magisterium. I am not a Catholic
myself (and even less I am a theologian), but I believe that the papal
infallibility is one of the biggest problems for the credibility of the
Church in the Western world. Anyway, as I said I am not a Catholic so
the issue of papal infallibility (and confused misunderstanding of the
distinction between the Universal and Roman-Catholic Church, which I am
afraid is one of the sources of the papal infallibility) are not much
interest of me.

What is the interest and what I see as the very evil fruit of Humane
Vitae is that by pushing the official Catholic doctrine to the
indefensible corner and discarding any credibility of Catholics to talk
on the reproductive issue for any non-Catholic, there is now missing
voice in the discussion. I do believe that abortion is a murder, and
I do believe (and I did promise in my marriage vows), that accepting
children God gives us is an inseparable part of the marriage. However,
neither of these positions is absolute (e.g., even the civil law knows
that there are situations when killing of other person is legitimate;
isn't the situation when the life and health of the mother is in danger
one of these?) and I believe there is need for continuous discussion on
the topic. I would love to have voice of conservative Catholics
participate in such discussion. Unfortunately, they are mostly silenced
because of the lost credibility and inability to formulate any other
opinion than blindly recite Humane Vitae’s dogmatic statements.

I would be grateful for HV to be one voice in the discussion, but it
seems obvious that some of its statements turned out to be too extreme
and they should be moderated or elaborated. Unfortunately they cannot be
because popes consider themselves to be better than other humans and so
they cannot say “I am sorry, this was a bit off” about some deeds of
their predecessors. Enough, I am starting to be too aggressive.  2

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Luther Reading Challenge | Sarah Hinlicky Wilson

Just when talking about Luther I have to mention
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/039... … one of the five books which changed
most my life.


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Discussion on Catholic Authenticity 26 comments
My Libido: A Mosquito

Well, for one “asexual” is for the other one gifted with the gift of
celibacy (1 Corinthians 7:7-9). And of course, it is just right and
proper if every Christians follows his/her calling. However, I have
problems (yes, I am a Protestant) when the calling is exchanged with the
office. E.g., it is my opinion that John Wesley (the great English
leader of the Methodist revival in the 18th century) had a gift of
celibacy, because he came rationally to the conclusion that a pastor
should give an example to his parishioners and be married (although he
lived for many many years without a significant problems and his
ministry schedule could be an example for 1Co 7:32b how he was incapable
of maitaining a good married relationship). Although I don't think he
ever did anything immoral, I am also afraid that his marriage was more
or less disaster. And of course, I am afraid, that the similar mistake
(just in the other direction) is a case for many Catholic priests.

mcepl captcrisis 2 months ago

Well, Augustine had (especially around sexuality) his own issues, what
I meant was that Bible is here remarkably egalitarian ... “husband does
not have authority over his own body”.

mcepl 2 months ago

> I was complaining to God about what a lustful, brutish, inconsiderate
> lout he was

Yes, I have to admit that being a guy with similar low libido (actually,
as a former lawyer there are moments when I can very much prefer exactly
Lex Visigothorum to my wife ;)) I can understand the author's cited
feelings. Except, the Bible has something else to say about this:

> For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the
> husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own
> body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another ... [exceptions
> follow]

So much for the Paul's supposed preference for celibacy!

Which are exactly the moments, when I would rather throw the Holy Bible
out of the window. Choosing the obedience to it may be quite difficult
at times.

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Liberal Limits—and Our Opportunity | Brandon McGinley

Exactly, I am not an American myself (only have a law degree from US
university), so I may not have facts correct, but from the legal point
of view the abandonment of the US Constitution (which requires
a Constitutional Amendment for the large scale changes of constitution)
started somewhere with FDR ("general welfare" was understood as a right
to ignore all limits on the executive power; show me in the
Constitution's enumerated powers place for FCC, SEC, etc.?) or with
Brown v. Board of Education (however I like its holding, of course, it
was going around the legislative process as well). Roe v. Wade and
similar disasters just walked on the path already prepared.

Isn't strange that the last amendment with the serious implications of
the life of ordinary people was 19th (that's 1920)?

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Discussion on First Things 60 comments
The Church and the “New Normal” | George Weigel

Does

> But too much of the Church’s clerical and lay leadership lost its
> nerve after Humanae Vitae.

Do you mean that you are sorry for too much energy spent on defending
this encyclical? That would be an interesting thought, which I would
tend to agree with.

----------------

Discussion on First Things 10 comments
Liberalism and the Church | David T. Koyzis

I don’t think you are quoting Locke in the right context. In his essay
on understanding he explicitly tried to look at the religion from the
political/legal point of view, and he expressly didn't want to
distinguish between Christianity and Islam or other religions, and he
didn't want to make a theological statement. From such point of view
I believe it is perfectly legitimate to consider all religions only as
a civic associations, ignoring their revealed part.

Just to the contrary there is a strange link between political
liberalism of the nineteenth century and rather personal faith. Lord
Acton seems to me for example way more involved in his faith than for
example Burke (as much as I admire his political thoughts), who quite
passionately disliked all kinds of Christian enthusiasm, because
religion was for him mainly bearer of tradition (see his comments on
Methodism).