Centered set and islam
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:status: draft
:date: 2016-01-11
:category: faith
:tags: blue ocean, centered faith, Christianity, islam, Allah
.. zotero-setup::
:style: chicago-author-date
When I described what I mean under the term `centered set faith`_
let me add couple of comments on what I see as shortcomings of
the bounded set faith.
First of all, there is a problem with a bounded set thinking,
that whether we want it or not, it usually centeres around
“Christians like us”. I guess any Christian would flatly deny to
do anything like that but on the other hand I have yet to find
a Christian who would define a bounded set and then he would
identify herself to be right on the edge of such set, or even
outside of the bounds and doomed to eternally perish in hell.
Most of the time the center of the Christian set seems to be
quite close to the speaker’s position.
Moreover, most of the time the bounded set concepts are used
during investigation of questions like “Is X still inside the
Christian set, or are they outside?” It seems to me that somehow
the bounded-set thinking leads to predominantly judgemental
attitude towards others. The centered-set model on the other hand
firmly puts Jesus/God in the middle and so it is by default that
we are not in the center, which leads to more *possibility* of
self-criticism and humbleness.
----
Do I want to say that all Muslims, Jehova Witnesses, etc. are
somehow at least a little bit Christians?
----
(11:38:01) Andrew Funka: I’m curious to hear more about your thoughts on Volf’s “Allah” book.
(11:38:33) mcepl: I haven’t finished yet, so this is just preliminary.
(11:39:41) mcepl: Really thought through book, the guy is really brilliant, nobody can say he is not well read on the topic (how many evangelicals now about Nicholas of Cusa?).
(11:41:04) mcepl: the problem is that the structure of the book seems to be going from the most provocative to more normal-Christian (I don’t want to use labels “conservative”, “orthodox”, or “evangelical” because neither fits well with the book).
(11:41:58) mcepl: so couple of times, when I screamed “you are missing this important point” I got in the following page (chapter) to his point “and yes, we have skipped over this problem, let’s deal with it now”, so perhaps some of my complaints about the book are caused I haven’t finished yet.
(11:44:21) mcepl: I really really like that (comparing to almost everybody else) he really gets down and dirty by thinking about what does it mean to “worship”, what does it mean “same God”, what do we imply if we say that they don’t worship the same God (are they idol-worshipers?) Do Jews and Christians worship the same God? Do Christians worship the same God (answer is obvious: no!). A lot and lot of thinking, which I miss from almost everybody else.
(11:47:48) Andrew Funka: When you finish with Volf, you might enjoy an article by Timothy Tennent (now president of Asbury Seminary in the USA) that I think does an excellent job of answering the question. Sounds like Volf has it mostly covered. And he does - there are some rather important things that he skips over, but I think he may have done so on purpose. Perhaps I can borrow that book when you’re done and give it a good read to refresh my memory and have a good conversation about it. Cheers!
(11:51:47) mcepl: and yet I have some problems with Volf (but perhaps he didn’t get there yet) … I believe when Muslims talk about “love of God” they mean mostly “mercy”, but I do believe that God loves us fully, not just with mercy (imagine, all you would feel towards Amy would be mercy).
(11:55:03) Andrew Funka: Oh yeah, Allah as described in the Koran has some serious deficiencies of character compared to God the Father as described in the Bible.
(11:55:24) mcepl: but as I said, perhaps I will yet get there
(11:57:12) mcepl: the second is that Volf a lot around Sufism (which is apparently a way closer to the Christian relationship to God), but I am not sure how really close their thoughts are to the mainstream Islam.
(11:59:28) Andrew Funka: All good points. Keep in mind what Volf is trying to do, though - he’s looking for bridges, rather than defining the barriers.
(11:59:54) mcepl: yes, and I applaud him
(12:00:48) mcepl: also, the difference most Americans completely ignores, Muslims for him are personally mostly Bosniaks, who are I believe a bit different (and a way more friendly) than some loonies from Saudi Arabia/Pakistan.
(12:03:57) Andrew Funka: Yeah, that’s one of the things he’s been criticized for regarding this book - that he leans too heavily on examples of, basically, “friendly” Moslems. But again, he’s looking for the bridges, and the friendly guys are going to be a lot easier to begin working out something better with. You aren’t going to get very far if you try to start with some ISIS fanatic. But you might get to those guys eventually, in a positive way, by starting with the friendly and more open guys.
(12:04:57) mcepl: (concerning ISIS fanatics … it is really questionable how much Moslems they are; UK police found in backpacks of some recruits “Islam for Dummies” ;))
(12:07:52) mcepl: well, what I meant is that Volf (comparing to 99.99% of his critics) has actuall personal experience with Muslims.
(12:07:59) Andrew Funka: Fanatics of every stripe are never following the orthodox stream of whatever it is they are fanatic about. E.G. the Jewish Zealots in the time of Jesus, National Socialists and German nationalism, Donald Trump and the Republican Party…
(12:08:37) Andrew Funka: Some of Volf’s critics are missionaries working undercover in closed Moslem nations…
(12:09:05) mcepl: right, so their experience of Islam cannot be more radically different than his
(12:09:23) Andrew Funka: Some of Volf’s more vehement critics are former Moslems.
(12:10:14) Andrew Funka: Not sayin’ his critics are totally right, just that it’s a hot issue. I think Volf brings a much-needed positive voice and perspective to the conversation.
(12:10:46) mcepl: (as a former PhD in sociology and social psychology) I am afraid there is not small number of maladjusted youth who are clinging to various group identities to save themselves. The problem is that they are mostly ignored by everybody except when that group turns out to be ISIS. If they were just some weird Jehova Witnesses, or even more weird cult; or Anarchists, Skinheads, we wouldn’t make much fuss about it. Because they murderous Muslim fanatics everybody is up their arms.
(12:14:38) Andrew Funka: Yeah, ISIS is the bad-guy of the decade. They’re great bad guys for the sensationalized media of our time.
.. _`centered set faith`:
{filename}/centered-set-thinking.rst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO0RtTOAiA
.. bibliography::
